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Vinyl Engine :: View topic - A Clean bearing... News Articles Library Forum Gallery Links FAQ Quoi de neuf HFE FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Gallery Register Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in A Clean bearing... Goto page 1, 2 Next Vinyl Engine Forum Index -> acoustic research forum View previous topic :: View next topic Author Message pivotsenior memberJoined: 27 Dec 2002Posts: 115Location: Albany, NY USA Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject: A Clean bearing... ...is a happy bearing. This weekend I hope to have time to take down my Merrill Mod AR AX and try out fixes for hum/rumble issues. Got some fresh Black Oil from Vinyl Nirvana (thanks Dave!) and will drain and replace the oil in the main bearing. I have seen some generic info around the web on how best to clean the main bearing well but I want to check here first. What do youse guys see as the way to clean a Merrill bearing? Should I just drain and refill? Should I try to get old oil out with a foam swab? Should I use disc brake cleaner as a solvent to flush the bearing? My concern with "flushing" is damaging the self lubricating properties of the bronze sleave and/or damaging the bonding of the bearing well to the sub chassis. Don't wanna screw things up._________________Kevin R-M Vintage Mod AR XA, Merrill motor, subchassis and bearing, SME IIIs arm, Audio Technica AT440MLa, Grado Blue w/DIY Longhorn, Gram Amp 2 SE Back to top ddarchmoderatorJoined: 17 Dec 2002Posts: 385Location: Seacoast, NH Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: I use 100% isopropryl alcohol and foam swabs, both found at Parts Express. I start with dry swabs, just getting the old oil out, then switch to isopropyl dipped swabs, to get the remnants. When the swab comes out clean, you are done. For a really dirty well, this might take 5-6 swabs. For one that has been cared for, 3-4. Do not add oil until the well is thoroughly dry. Dave_________________David Archambault, Exeter, NH www.vinylnirvana.com Back to top gkimengcontributorJoined: 02 Nov 2007Posts: 148 Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: ddarch wrote: I use 100% isopropryl alcohol and foam swabs, both found at Parts Express. Is the Merrill bearing oilite? If so, alcohol is generally not recommended for cleaning oilite, as it may leach out the mineral oil that is impregnated into the bronze, and once deoiled, oilite will only reabsorb oil if it is heated to a temperature of 150F. A gentler cleaner would be naptha/napthalene/plain old lighter fluid. If the bearing is just plain sintered bronze, there is no impregnated oil and alcohol is perfectly safe, but lighter fluid works here as well. I keep a can of Ronson handy for anything that looks like bronze, because if the mfr doesn't tell you whether the bearing is oilite or just sintered bronze you really can't tell what you've got just by looking. Back to top ddarchmoderatorJoined: 17 Dec 2002Posts: 385Location: Seacoast, NH Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: The Merrill bearing well is a type of sintered bronze. Good info, though. Dave_________________David Archambault, Exeter, NH www.vinylnirvana.com Back to top LPMmemberJoined: 15 Feb 2008Posts: 23Location: Melbourne Australia Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:48 pm Post subject: In the Audio Basics 1984 article on refurbishing an AR TT (page 5) they used lighter fluid and I've used it safely for years for similar cleaning purposes. I hope this isn’t hijacking the thread but what oil is best for cleaning and re-oiling a standard AR TT bearing then? I presume the Black Oil mentioned is specifically for the Merrill bearing. I’ve searched the forum (and beyond) pretty extensively and everything from sewing machine oil to silicone and grease is mentioned on various threads. So far I’ve simply used 10 grade light mineral oil since I ran out of my original AR supplied oil but I've never actually pulled things apart for a proper clean though. Suspect I should. In that Audio Basics article, they used 1000cps silicone fluid. That makes sense to me for pivot and arm well but not so sure for the platter bearing as my understanding is that silicone oil is not ideal for metal to metal lubrication though I guess revs and forces are quite low. And is silicone fluid the same as silicone oil? Back to top gkimengcontributorJoined: 02 Nov 2007Posts: 148 Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:34 am Post subject: LPM wrote: In the Audio Basics 1984 article on refurbishing an AR TT (page 5) they used lighter fluid and I've used it safely for years for similar cleaning purposes. I hope this isn’t hijacking the thread but what oil is best for cleaning and re-oiling a standard AR TT bearing then? I presume the Black Oil mentioned is specifically for the Merrill bearing. The original AR tables came with what was basically #10 machine oil, and they were not terribly finicky about what kind you used. Right now I'm using one of those "pocket oilers" from Radion Shack, but over the years I've used everything from #10 motor oil to black gun oil. I don't see any reason why the Merrill "black oil" wouldn't work. If the name is any indication, it's most likely a light oil with molybdenum disulfide powder added. Back to top pivotsenior memberJoined: 27 Dec 2002Posts: 115Location: Albany, NY USA Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: Well - Ronson lighter fluid it was. Did a good job. On foam swabs: I tried using foam swabs from the Drug Store, intended for use with nail polish remover. A foam head came off in the bottom of the bearing well. Boy, oh, boy did I turn the air blue!!! Had to call on some non-standard tools to extract it (pistol cleaning rod and patch worm). Bottom line - use swabs intended for electronics AND make sure the heads are secure! Installed one of Vinyl Nirvana's new pulleys as well. Did not have much chance to listen - will report back when I do._________________Kevin R-M Vintage Mod AR XA, Merrill motor, subchassis and bearing, SME IIIs arm, Audio Technica AT440MLa, Grado Blue w/DIY Longhorn, Gram Amp 2 SE Back to top BaMorinsenior memberJoined: 14 Jun 2007Posts: 140Location: Columbus, Ohio Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: A Clean bearing... [quote="pivot"]...is a happy bearing. Now that i'm able to post again.....i'd like to remind all the folks here who are still using the basic chassis with the delrin bottom thrust bearing, that my drop-in bearing is available. I sent Eric (sound of the wood) samples which he has tried. He found them to be very quiet. This drop in bearing (drops in over the existing plasic bearing) will allow the use of a record weight without boring a hole in the plastic bearing.....and it does quiet the table. Back to top Beltwaysenior memberJoined: 23 Dec 2005Posts: 371Location: Calgary, Canada Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:13 am Post subject: Time to resurrect this thread. I just received one of BaMorin's bearing discs and it is a quality product. Fine cross-hatched metal vs. the plastic.Last edited by Beltway on Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:29 am; edited 1 time in total Back to top Beltwaysenior memberJoined: 23 Dec 2005Posts: 371Location: Calgary, Canada Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:23 am Post subject: My table had three bearing discs: http://www.vinylengine.com/php.....;full=true Back to top BaMorinsenior memberJoined: 14 Jun 2007Posts: 140Location: Columbus, Ohio Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:36 am Post subject: Beltway wrote: My table had three bearing discs: http://www.vinylengine.com/php.....;full=true Good thing I'm not the only one with multiple delrin disks.....previous thread on this I mentioned all of the ARs I've had had 2 disks....another poster who worked for AR said only one was used. Somebody must have been doing "piece work" those days and got paid per disk. Glad you received the bearing, hope it works for you as it should. Marc Back to top gkimengcontributorJoined: 02 Nov 2007Posts: 148 Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:48 am Post subject: BaMorin wrote: Good thing I'm not the only one with multiple delrin disks.....previous thread on this I mentioned all of the ARs I've had had 2 disks....another poster who worked for AR said only one was used. Somebody must have been doing "piece work" those days and got paid per disk. Glad you received the bearing, hope it works for you as it should. I'm wondering if those discs weren't also being used as shims to get a specific amount of space between platter and deck. Dropping an extra one in during the final assembly if the suspension is riding a bit low would be a lot less work than having to readjust the springs. Back to top OldRelayersenior memberJoined: 28 Jan 2006Posts: 163 Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: A word about lubricant. I am sure someone will tell me all the reasons why I shouldn't use Synthetic oil. I used molybdenum disulfide additive in my cars for years, it is becoming harder to find so I recently tried synthetic oil, ELF which is like European Mobile One, which is what they sell at my local oil change place. Immediately the engine was quieter and I am getting 2 mpg better so this stuff is really good stuff. I have to say that is seems better than Moly and that is saying a lot. One of my cars doesn't use the entire 5 quarts allowed so I asked them to put the rest in a jug for adds and for general purpose lubricant. The only down side might be that at room temperature it is a little thicker than the AR oil but still offers more advantages and it isn't 90 weight gear oil just a bit thicker. Ok, having said all of that, it makes an excellent turntable lubricant, and one hell of a good product for your car, a bit pricey but if your planning on keeping your car a while it is well worth the money. Well, that is my story and I am sticking too it. Barry_________________AR-XA turntable, JVC CD(gets little use), Marantz 4140 amp, Carver TX-10 tuner, Teac DBX cassette, AR3as speakers. Back to top BaMorinsenior memberJoined: 14 Jun 2007Posts: 140Location: Columbus, Ohio Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: OldRelayer wrote: A word about lubricant. I am sure someone will tell me all the reasons why I shouldn't use Synthetic oil. I used molybdenum disulfide additive in my cars for years, it is becoming harder to find so I recently tried synthetic oil, ELF which is like European Mobile One, which is what they sell at my local oil change place. Immediately the engine was quieter and I am getting 2 mpg better so this stuff is really good stuff. I have to say that is seems better than Moly and that is saying a lot. One of my cars doesn't use the entire 5 quarts allowed so I asked them to put the rest in a jug for adds and for general purpose lubricant. The only down side might be that at room temperature it is a little thicker than the AR oil but still offers more advantages and it isn't 90 weight gear oil just a bit thicker. Ok, having said all of that, it makes an excellent turntable lubricant, and one hell of a good product for your car, a bit pricey but if your planning on keeping your car a while it is well worth the money. Well, that is my story and I am sticking too it. Barry Mobil 1 is the best motor oil to use. But lets examine what happens in an auto and what happens in a spindle well. Motor oil has peak lubricosity starting at 165 deg F to about 190 deg, then for every 10 degree increase lubricosity is cut in half. Mobil 1 numbers start around 150 deg and extend to around 240 deg. All of that is never seen in a turntable. Next, motor oil has four separate functions. first, as the crank starts to spin the oil forms a wedge. The crank starts to climb this wedge and the leading edge breaks off forming a roller bearing. Once the crank is up to speed the journal is encased in a rollerbearing of oil. Next, some of the oil must stay in place (stationary) on the bearing and on the journal and the roller oil rides on this. Just like the last couple of drops of oil going down the funnel are "ball bearings" as they go down. The speed of the spindle will not cause this wedge phenom to happen. Third, oil must have a strong enough film strength to withstand crushing and if it does crush an EP (extreme pressure) additive must disapate that force. That happens at tappets and rocker arms. EP additives used to be Zinc Sulfide....slightly corrosive. EP additives now is molybdenum...even in Mobil 1. Molybdenum will cut load (crush) in half by the microscopic plates it is made of slipping sideways (90 deg) to load angle thus dispersing load. In a spindle well, there are 2 different loads. one is side load, and the other is end load at the spindle end. The end of the spindle is under tremendous load per square inch. Both loads, side and end depend upon the lubricant to disperse load 90 deg. At the very tangent point of your spindle there is no lubrication. The force is too high unless the surface has impregnated into it a self lubrication. There is no such thing as having too much moly in the oil as far as turntables go. If the "black" in Merrill oil is Moly, it means he did his homework when studying the lubrication needs of a spindle and sleeve bearing. Next installment will be the effects of crosshatch of the spindle and sleeve if anyone is interested. Next time you're at the auto shop...see if you can mooch 0W20 Mobil 1 Back to top BaMorinsenior memberJoined: 14 Jun 2007Posts: 140Location: Columbus, Ohio Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject: gkimeng wrote: BaMorin wrote: Good thing I'm not the only one with multiple delrin disks.....previous thread on this I mentioned all of the ARs I've had had 2 disks....another poster who worked for AR said only one was used. Somebody must have been doing "piece work" those days and got paid per disk. Glad you received the bearing, hope it works for you as it should. I'm wondering if those discs weren't also being used as shims to get a specific amount of space between platter and deck. Dropping an extra one in during the final assembly if the suspension is riding a bit low would be a lot less work than having to readjust the springs. That was my thoughts as well........as I posted them in a PM to another member. Much easier to take care of tolerance differences. 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